Kratom Potenation?

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Mar 26 09 9:38 PM

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Why is there no Kratom section?

Anyway could kratom be made more potentate, cause swim has noticed that kratom akaloids Mitragynine and 7-Hydroxymitragynine have DMT as there back bone. DMT isn't active orally unless combined with a MAOI. I also read some where that grapefruit juice could potentate kratom cause it was a weak MAO(don't know how true it is), so swim was wondering could we kratom be made more potent say with like harmaline and/or hordenine?

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toastus

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#1 [url]

Mar 27 09 5:19 PM

I have been thinking about mixing Kratom (or maybe a full spectrum kratom extract) with cinnamon oil, so the cinnamaldehyde binds to the mitragynine and 7-hydroxy-mitragynine and alters its molecular structure. Doing this to other molecules like LSA, caffeine, and hordenine has made them more potent and more lipophilic. They will enter the brain from the blood more this way, but sometimes there effects are unpredictably altered.

Phenethylamine when combined with cinnamon oil seemed to produce toxic effects, but I am not 100% sure about this, it's possible that it was made much more potent and the dose tested was actually an overdose, or that something else was at play. Hopefully I can test this sometime in the future. 

However, a number of compounds and herbs are made better by reacting them with cinnamon oil. LSA, caffeine, cayenne pepper (capsaicin), and hordenine are altered to produce different, but somewhat more applicable analogs. LSA and caffeine are made 3 times more potent this way. Caffeine + cinnamon oil lasts much longer than caffeine. LSA is made into "LSC" which is much more euphoric, vasodilating (as opposed to LSA's painful vasoconstriction) and more stimulating than LSA. Hordenine when combined with cinnamon oil loses its MAO-B inhibiting properties but becomes much more stimulating (probably from increased BBB crossing). Cayenne pepper, when combined with cinnamon, becomes much more stimulating and lasts much longer.

So, cinnamon oil seems designed to enhance the effects of many herbs and compounds, but not all of them. Since it's usually a bad idea to add any functional groups to the indole nitrogen atom of tryptamines like DMT and psilocin, and mitragynine has a DMT backbone (and the indole nitrogen is the only place cinnamon oil could bind to mitragynine), adding cinnamon oil to kratom might make the mitragynine or other compounds completely inactive (or worse, toxic). I have prepared a batch, and a friend asked if he could have it to test later. He hasn't tested it yet but once he does I will post what happens.

It would be very useful if we could prepare highly potent extracts, on the order of milligram potency!

Also, if this works it would probably make kratom much more addictive. I still recommend combining this with cats claw extracts to reduce addictive potential. Something I'd really like to try is combining cats claw with cinnamon oil to make it more potent. Imagine getting it down to an active dose at 30 mg! Theoretically we could try this method with all herbs containing an exposed nitrogen atom (bonds still available), even kanna (but I wouldn't try this, because it would produce way too much serotonin). But we don't even know if cats claw becomes more toxic when combined with cinnamon oil, so we have to start at extremely low doses before we test any of this.

It doesn't take a lot of cinnamon oil to completely react. They have to react outside of the body (as opposed to ingesting them separately and letting them react inside the body, that doesn't work). You just need enough to get it wet throughout, and it should react pretty quickly.

I stress, if you attempt to do this start with very low doses, because the molecules could become toxic. We would only consider trying this because many compounds seem to be improved in some way when combined with cinnamon oil, so it stands to reason other compounds might be improved as well. But some could become toxic, so please don't do anything stupid like taking a whole gram of kratom with cinnamon oil without testing it first! Nobody has any experience with kratom + cinnamon oil yet, but hopefully soon we can see whether or not it helps.

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toastus

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Mar 27 09 5:29 PM

I've tested kratom with hordenine many times, and all hordenine does for kratom is up the dopamine boost slightly by preventing dopamine from breaking down.

I haven't tried it with harmaline/other MAO-A inhibitors, so I can't comment on that.

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#3 [url]

Mar 27 09 10:00 PM

I've tested kratom with hordenine many times, and all hordenine does for kratom is up the dopamine boost slightly by preventing dopamine from breaking down.

I haven't tried it with harmaline/other MAO-A inhibitors, so I can't comment on that.

-toastus


Well what if we used say a MAOI then both MAO-A and MAO-B would be inhibited potentially allowing more psychedelic effects of kratom. Like you said this could make kratom alot more addicting

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maggy

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Mar 27 09 10:27 PM

This thread has been moved to the new kratom section.

Without love life means nothing. Spread a little love day by day and remember "the love you take is equal to the love you make".

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toastus

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Mar 27 09 11:22 PM

Well what if we used say a MAOI then both MAO-A and MAO-B would be inhibited potentially allowing more psychedelic effects of kratom. Like you said this could make kratom alot more addicting

-uglybuddy6

No, it works like this:

Monoamine Oxidase Inhibitors (MAOI's) either destroy or use up one or both of the enzymes MAO-A and MAO-B. Hordenine only inhibits MAO-B, but it is termed an MAOI. Harmaline only inhibits MAO-A, but it is termed an MAOI. MAOI is a term referring to any inhibitor/destroyer of one or both of the MAO enzymes. MAO-B does not process anything in kratom (at least anything noticeable) so it doesn't matter if MAO-B is inhibited. MAO-A, however, might do something.

The other thing is that the addictive effects of kratom will increase along with the psychedelic effects if we are able to boost it using MAOI's. Cinnamon oil might lower the stimulation produced by kratom, or it might enhance it and block the euphoria.

I really only find kratom mildly psychedelic in the classical hallucinogenic sense (I mean I don't think it turns on the 5-HT2A receptor that much). It's got a much more dreamy quality, like opium dreams that people used to write about. Cats claw, on the other hand, is quite psychedelic (not full on but pretty obvious). If you mix the two, the dopamine from kratom synergizes with the visuals from cats claw, and the cats claw blocks the addictiveness of kratom. Good combo, especially when you add kanna (sceletium tortuosum, it releases serotonin which enhances your mood BIG time).

Now, if we add cinnamon oil there's no telling what kind of alterations might happen to any of the molecules. It might boost or lower psychedelicness, NMDA antagonism (from rhynchophylline), stimulation, sedation, euphoria, or anything. It could even add in new effects which could help or hinder it, or could even become toxic. I really won't know until I try it out. It will be really interesting to see how it turns out.

The point is that MAO-A inhibition, if it worked, wouldn't boost only the psychedelic effects, it would also boost the addictive effects. Hopefully we can figure out a good way to enhance kratom, because I don't like having to take 15 grams to get any effects, or having to buy a 100X extract to get any effects from low doses.

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#6 [url]

Mar 27 09 11:34 PM


Hopefully we can figure out a good way to enhance kratom, because I don't like having to take 15 grams to get any effects, or having to buy a 100X extract to get any effects from low doses.

-toastus

I feel you but if you do find a way to potentate it wouldn't it make more of a target and the goverment might end up banning kratom and then we would have lost a wonderful plant. Oh and i was doing some research about this idea and on this site http://www.salvia-divinorum.com/kratom.htm it say "We recommended that kratom not be combined with Syrian rue, Banesteriopsis caapi, or any other MAO inhibitor drug. Serious, even fatal, reactions can occur if MAO inhibitor drugs are combined with monoamine drugs. The combination of MAO inhibitor drugs with kratom, which contains monoamine alkaloids, has not been studied." Just thought that was interesting and, like it said its unstudied so harmaline still has pretty good chance of potentiating kratom. 

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toastus

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#7 [url]

Mar 28 09 12:56 AM

Yeah, the serious reactions that occur with MAOI's only occur with pharmaceutical permanent inhibitors, not reversible inhibitors like harmaline. Harmaline will only produce dangerous reactions with certain stimulants and serotonin releasers, amoing a few other things.

Kratom with MAOI's has been mostly unstudied. What I predict will happen, if none of the active compounds are potentiated, is that the dopamine and norepinephrine released by the compounds will not be broken down and will be more powerful.

The government will end up banning it anyways. I see no hope for keeping anything legal. I don't think this research will get far out into popular culture to get enough people to use kratom with cinnamon oil, and if it did the government would still be on the road to banning it. They already have it as a "plant of interest" or whatever they call it...

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#8 [url]

Mar 28 09 3:58 AM

 The government will end up banning it anyways. I see no hope for keeping anything legal. I don't think this research will get far out into popular culture to get enough people to use kratom with cinnamon oil, and if it did the government would still be on the road to banning it. They already have it as a "plant of interest" or whatever they call it...

-toastus


I hope they don't and when i get my hands on some more harmaline i will try this and post back here

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toastus

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#9 [url]

Mar 28 09 7:26 PM

I hope they don't and when i get my hands on some more harmaline i will try this and post back here

-uglybuddy6

Good, hope to see how it interacts with MAO-A. :)

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Apr 1 09 8:40 PM

A friend of a friend tried this about eight months ago. He ground two teaspoons of peganum harmala seeds into a fine powder which was subsequently boiled for fifteen minutes in three cups of water. The resulting decoction, still containing the original plant material, was then set aside while three tablespoon of crushed, dried kratom leaves were ground into a fine powder and mixed with 2 1/3 cups of water. This was placed in a microwave on high for six minutes. The two decoctions were mixed together without discarding any plant material and drunk over the course of about fifteen minutes. Subjectively, the dualistic stimulation and mild, opiate-like sedation of kratom came on as normal. The marked, ethereal intoxication accompanying a small dose of syrian rue also developed as normal. The sedative nature of kratom seemed to synergize nicely with the spacey relaxation which accompanies the harmine family of alkaloids. As far as actual intensity, the sedative/euphoric effects of kratom noticeably, albeit subtly, increased as compared to the experience of kratom alone. Of far more interest, however, was the length of the trip. While kratom's grip usually begins to loosen around two hours after ingestion, its effects when paired with the preparation of peganum harmala lasted almost five hours. This was by far the most exciting aspect of the as of yet latent potentials that can be realized by the union of these two intriguing plants. I hope that this account will open the door to more inquiry into this very arousing stream of thought!

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#11 [url]

May 6 09 9:28 PM

Greetings all....I really enjoy kratom. I take  it 2 to 3 times per week. I want to continue enjoying kratom for years to come and respect the herb. I am trying not to build up a tolerance and was told staying on low doses 5 grams is the way to go. I'm curious if the following potentation is safe and will it help lower tolerance? I have heard DXM is not the best thing to mix with kratom, but 30mg seems to be a low dose.


* T-45) 3 200mg Cimetidine pills (Tagamet), washed down with a HUGE tonic water\white grapefruit juice cocktail.
* T-35) 1 Coriciden Cough & Cold (30mg DXM and 4mg CPM), 1 Benadryl (30mg), and one and a half Aleve (330mg) .
* T-20) 2 Extra strength Tums or 1.5 Tablespoon of Baking Soda if SWIY is consuming kratom material.
* T-0) Do what SWIY will do with your kratom.



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#12 [url]

May 6 09 9:41 PM


I'm curious if the following potentation is safe and will it help lower tolerance? I have heard DXM is not the best thing to mix with kratom, but 30mg seems to be a low dose. 

-truthseeker3

Well DXM is kinda a good idea actually because it will potentate it at low dose but if you have to much it will completely destroy the effects of kratom. Also DXM is a NMDA antagonists so it should prevent tolerance build up. The method of potentiating kratom that is purposed in this thread hasn't bean well tested. I plan on testing this soon but will have to wait until i get some harmaline. Toastus a good member of this forum noticed a more potent chemical being made when taking kratom with cinnamon essential oil.

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toastus

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#13 [url]

May 7 09 5:47 AM


Well DXM is kinda a good idea actually because it will potentate it at low dose but if you have to much it will completely destroy the effects of kratom. Also DXM is a NMDA antagonists so it should prevent tolerance build up. The method of potentiating kratom that is purposed in this thread hasn't bean well tested. I plan on testing this soon but will have to wait until i get some harmaline. Toastus a good member of this forum noticed a more potent chemical being made when taking kratom with cinnamon essential oil.

-uglybuddy6

I'm fairly confident that taken separately they won't react, so you have to give them time to react outside of the body.

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#15 [url]

May 8 09 9:30 PM

The mix of kratom with a NMDA abtagonist works, though it push both things very high in my experience.
This doesn't look anymore like a kratom experience but more of an actual strong opiate, with  strong dissociation. For some reason this stimulation crashed and yield to a sort of draining. As of now I'm not sure of it's safety, I found it has some serious potential for abuse. But it seems like you're left a piece of rot after a few hours (toxicity ?).
Note that this experiment was done with medium staggered doses of 3-MeO-2-Oxo-PCE.

I'm here to learn a lot about essential oils. If you have some good documents, send me pdf or links.

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