Kudzu, a Euphoric Stimulant!

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toastus

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Mar 3 09 6:20 PM

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Last night I felt another one of those colds coming on. So I took a huge dose of 40% kudzu extract, 500 mg. No capsule, just swallowed the powder with water (it's not that bitter so it goes down really easily). Within a few minutes I felt, literally, a euphoric stimulation come on. It felt sort of like phenethylamine, in that it was definitely a huge release of norepinephrine and dopamine.

Other effects included oxytocin release via 5-HT1A agonism, so that sets the stage for the euphoria generated by kudzu.

I tried to notice its effect on nicotinic acetylcholine receptors, but I couldn't notice anything as I'm not too familiar with the specific action of kudzu on those receptors.

However, this stuff works GREAT. And supposedly it can be used safely at extremely high doses, due to the relative safety of raw kudzu at high doses as well. Just don't go so high that the stimulation starts to get bad...

As far as a comedown, I'm not sure there is one, but I will have to double check that after my cold wears off. I feel baseline right now, which means gross and lacking norepinephrine and dopamine...

Kudzu does this by antagonizing the 5-HT2C receptor. This is basically the "sickness" receptor, when it turns on it inhibits the release of dopamine and norepinephrine, making you feel down, and lethargic. Blocking it makes you energetic and euphoric. Apparently most people have at least a medium amount of 5-HT2C activation, probably because of non-organic diet and the body's reaction to it.

SWIM also tried this plant extract after I mentioned it to him, and he has something very important to say. SWIM has had cannabis tolerance for several weeks now. Smoking it every day causes this. SWIM no longer got significant visuals, euphoria, or philosophically deep mindset from cannabis, just a good feeling numbness to the body and mind. After trying a similar dose of kudzu with cannabis, SWIM can say with confidence that it brought back most of the original high. Kudzu made cannabis much more psychedelic. I'm not sure that kudzu is a 5-HT2A antagonist, it might just be a weak agonist that prevents more powerful agonists from binding. That, or the dopamine release caused by 5-HT2C antagonization supported the increase in visuals. The huge amount of norepinephrine sped up heart rate, which seemed anciently familiar to SWIM.

Anyway I think this would go great with phenethylamine, as long as a ton of vasodilators are included. :D

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toastus

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Mar 4 09 6:24 AM

I haven't tried any tinctures.

I tried 650 mg today, and felt AMAZING. I think I might be getting tolerance to it though, because it didn't last as long, so I might need to tone it down a bit. More research is still needed.

A friend of mine tried 800 mg today and felt good, but not on the same level that I did. They got nothing from 500 mg, so maybe they're just not absorbing as much of it.

EDIT: Kudzu is definitely a weak psychedelic, like sassafras. I don't think it antagonizes 5-HT2A as much as weakly agonizing it. Maybe with a higher affinity than other psychedelics, reducing their binding efficiency. Is that the definition of a competitive agonist? W/e

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69ron

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Mar 4 09 6:57 AM

I tried it once when I had a cold and it definitely made me feel a lot better.

I haven't tried the tinctures yet.

The 40% extract I've tried is very nice. I use it orally without a capsule. It tastes sort of like strong tea. Not at all unpleasant to me.

It's effects are like toastus says. It's a very pleasant experience. I haven’t felt any negative effects from it on its own or in combination with any other things yet.

Its effects on 5-HT2A are easily overpowered by the psychedelics I tried with it. The most I used was 400 mg with a good dose of elemicin and the trip was really nice. It didn’t negatively affect the trip at all, and seemed to improve the mood quite a bit.

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toastus

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#5 [url]

Mar 4 09 7:38 AM

Holy crap, I'm getting mild intellectual philosophical boost from the kudzu! It really is a psychedelic! This was from 650 mg taken a few hours ago. At first it was like a euphoric stimulant. Now it's developing psychedelic qualities.

Actually, now that I think about it the psychedelic qualities were present before, when I first took it. I was just too focused on the stimulation to notice it.

So, kudzu, which INFESTS my home state (meaning even if society collapses I'll have an unlimited supply), is a dopaminergic, adrenergic, oxytocinergic psychedelic. Ho-ly-crap, that sounds like one of the best possible combinations to me. Too bad the extract isn't that potent, otherwise I'd use this all the time.

Well, maybe I'm being picky. Just because I can't fit a few grams into a single capsule doesn't mean it's too big of a dose. I'm going to work up to a full gram of this extract, maybe more. The raw plant material would be hard to get to this big of a dose unless a tea/extract was made.

I wonder... Maybe it's designed to be used at higher doses, so there won't be any negative effects at higher doses. More research is needed!

Maybe it would be good to add to the intelligence enhancement combination? It would certainly add some BDNF into the equation.

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#6 [url]

Mar 4 09 6:38 PM

I am thinking of combining kudzu with cinnamon oil and cayenne extract before workouts. Does anyone else see potential for combining the three?

I have also been combining L-phenylalanine with cinnamon oil and cayenne. I was thinking of switching to the D form of phenylalanine instead, because it inhibits phenylalanine ammonia lyase. But does the D form have the same effects as far as stimulation goes? If so, do you think kudzu would cause over stimulation?

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toastus

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#7 [url]

Mar 4 09 9:33 PM

Kudzu didn't work nearly as well for me today. So, for future reference, kudzu does not work when taken more than once every day! I don't think it will work well taken once daily either, so either keep the dose low or keep your recreational doses spread apart by a day or two. That should work fine.

Oh, and the bad part about kudzu is that if there is a comedown it feels like you're sick (upregulation of 5-HT2C). It should go away quickly, but it still sucks. Other dopaminergics do this too, so no biggie.

Maybe when used with an NMDA antagonist no upregulation/downregulation results? Maybe even no loss in tolerance!

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toastus

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Mar 4 09 9:42 PM

I am thinking of combining kudzu with cinnamon oil and cayenne extract before workouts. Does anyone else see potential for combining the three?
I have also been combining L-phenylalanine with cinnamon oil and cayenne. I was thinking of switching to the D form of phenylalanine instead, because it inhibits phenylalanine ammonia lyase. But does the D form have the same effects as far as stimulation goes? If so, do you think kudzu would cause over stimulation?

-b_jammin

I was thinking something like that combined with a COMT inhibitor. That would allow doses for all three to be reduced, while maintaining the same output of catecholamines (adrenaline, dopamine).

I'm not sure if the D form is converted into phenethylamine. Maybe a mixture of both D and L forms would be best? Not sure on this one. Also, I have no experience with the D form, but 69ron says it gives him headaches, so stay cautious.

I'm curious, why would you want to inhibit phenylalanine ammonia lyase?

Kudzu shouldn't cause overstimulation, unless used with things that prevent the breakdown of adrenaline, noradrenaline, etc.

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#9 [url]

Mar 4 09 11:25 PM

My reasons for this combination are not for potentiating PEA. I have used PEA in the past for my training and I feel like it actually takes me out of the zone and messes with my coordination. I don't like the PEA effects I get from phenylalanine at all. So correct me if I'm wrong but I think by inhibiting phenylalanine ammonia lyase, less PEA will be made. And more of the phenylalanine can be used to fuel L-Tyrosine production instead.

What type of COMT inhibitor were you thinking of using? I have been throwing rhodiola in with my combination once and a while, and I like it a lot. Some sources say it is a COMT inhibitor but I don't know how strong. If it inhibits COMT strongly then I will surely leave it in my stack.

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#10 [url]

Mar 4 09 11:29 PM

               
Also, I have no experience with the D form, but 69ron says it gives him headaches, so stay cautious.

-toastus

I have used the D form quite a few times and not had problems so I should be fine there. :D

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toastus

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Mar 4 09 11:43 PM

My reasons for this combination are not for potentiating PEA. I have used PEA in the past for my training and I feel like it actually takes me out of the zone and messes with my coordination. I don't like the PEA effects I get from phenylalanine at all. So correct me if I'm wrong but I think by inhibiting phenylalanine ammonia lyase, less PEA will be made. And more of the phenylalanine can be used to fuel L-Tyrosine production instead.
What type of COMT inhibitor were you thinking of using? I have been throwing rhodiola in with my combination once and a while, and I like it a lot. Some sources say it is a COMT inhibitor but I don't know how strong. If it inhibits COMT strongly then I will surely leave it in my stack.

-b_jammin


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phenylalanine_ammonia-lyase
Phenylalanine ammonia lyase doesn't decarboxylate phenylalanine to phenethylamine. It deaminates phenylalanine to cinnamic acid. There was some misinformation on here earlier. Unless I'm wrong, and the enzyme also plays a role in decarboxylation... But that's what wikipedia says.

Also, didn't I read somewhere that both form of phenylalanine inhibit the lyase enzyme? Maybe it's that the L form is a substrate, while the D form is a direct inhibitor... I'd rather not speculate but research it more.

Anyways, I'd like to use pure chicoric acid extracted from Echinacea. It is the only pure COMT inhibitor that I know of that is natural and will cross over into the brain. Everything else, especially rhodiola, has other mechanisms of action that interferes/could pose problems with my use of it. The only places I found that would sell chicoric acid are on alibaba.com. Some of the vendors there sell pure chicoric acid, but they require you to buy at least a kilogram! That would be hundreds of dollars.

Totally worth it. :D

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#12 [url]

Mar 5 09 1:46 AM

Everything else, especially rhodiola, has other mechanisms of action that interferes/could pose problems with my use of it.


-toastus


Could you elaborate a little?

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toastus

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Mar 5 09 3:41 AM

It is an MAO-A and MAO-B inhibitor, as well as many other actions. It's a pretty complicated plant. :)

I plan to use kanna, which releases serotonin. MAO-A inhibition would interfere with this and cause serotonin syndrome.

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#14 [url]

May 17 09 6:00 AM

mixing kanna with kudzu made me feel sick as a dog for about three hours.  kudzu on its own or at least the flowers have a very sedated slowed down feeling with them and quite strong munchies.  weird do you use the whole plant or just leaves, or what?  wikipedia says Kudzu is a unique source of the isoflavone puerarin. Kudzu root compounds can affect neurotransmitters (including serotonin, GABA, and glutamate).[citation needed] It has shown value in treating migraine and cluster headaches.[9][unreliable source?] It is recommended by some[who?] for allergies and diarrhea.[10]" 


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#15 [url]

May 17 09 6:11 AM

Uh.... SWIM believes Toastus meant to say that they DONT plan on using the two together as they would possibly cause serotonin syndrome.

So for now NO ONE attempt combining kanna and kudzu together. If toastus could explain the reasoning for their last post or whether or not it was a mistake?

Could dmtubbler please describe what they meant by "sick as a dog". Fever, vomitting, etc?

Pce,
ElusiveMind

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toastus

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#16 [url]

May 17 09 2:44 PM

Nah, Kudzu doesn't have MAO inhibiting qualities as far as I can tell. I've used it with Kanna several times with good success, although it seems SLIGHTLY possible that it boosts the potency of Kanna a little. I am not certain of that but it wasn't more than a 50 mg difference in dose. Further research is needed on that. I don't know why you got sick from the combination, maybe repeat with smaller doses of each on their own and investigate what is going on? Your call.

My post was referring to Rhodiola rosea's MAO-A inhibiting qualities. I wouldn't use rhodiola with Kanna, unless the MAO-A inhibiting qualities turn out to be very small.

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#17 [url]

May 17 09 6:13 PM


It is an MAO-A and MAO-B inhibitor, as well as many other actions. It's a pretty complicated plant. :)
I plan to use kanna, which releases serotonin. MAO-A inhibition would interfere with this and cause serotonin syndrome.



Ahhhh, my bad. SWIM read your post wrong. SWIM was a little puzzled on why you would post something like that with an obvious negative side-effect :P

Still interested in why dmtubbler had negative effects though. Possible interaction with something else taken that day?

Pce,
ElusiveMind

EDIT:

Yep, Daidzin does inhibit serotonin and dopamine metabolism. Read THIS article.
So be cautious when working with this plant.

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toastus

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May 17 09 9:39 PM

Yeah, but it works by inhibiting ALDH-2, which breaks down the MAO-catalyzed metabolites of serotonin and dopamine. Meaning:

Serotonin ----- MAO -----> Aldehyde version of Serotonin ----- ALDH ------> carboxylic acid version of Serotonin

Meaning it wouldn't increase serotonin concentrations at all, through this mechanism at least.

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#19 [url]

May 18 09 1:35 AM

by sick as a dog I meant nauseous with hot and cold flashes, chills, and all around bad feeling in my body.  The flowers are the only part of the plant I have tried and on an occasion were me and some friends mixed some with some kanna and it made everyone quite sick. 

Toastus what parts of the plant do you use? there possibly could be different concentrations of active ingredients leading to effects because while I do agree with you by itself it is a nice euphoriant but i find it very sedating almost like a gaba antagonist.  I have only used the flowers tho per some recommendation of this old hippy I know.  there just now coming into bloom tho so I'm gonna run some more tests soon.  gonna try mixing in some lavender or wisteria for flavor.

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