Simple cebil seed reaction causes DMT-like effects orally

Rss     Subscribe     Share     Tweet    


0 Points

avatar

69ron

fanatic

Posts: 1,678

Lead

Apr 22 08 8:37 PM

Tags : :

Recently two tests were performed using very potent Anadenanthera colubrina seeds. In both tests 400 mg of seeds were used. This was two seeds in both test which were selected from many to come to this weight within +-5 mg.

No special treatment was performed on the seeds in the first test. The seeds were consumed orally after de-hulling them. In both cases 1100 mg of ginger was taken to try to stop the nausea. In the second test the seeds were ground with 1200 mg of calcium carbonate and a little water was then added, maybe 50 ml? It was then mixed for 8 hours overnight. After that, it was consumed as is.
So basically the only difference between test 1 and test 2 was that in test 2 the seeds were mixed with 3 times their weight in calcium carbonate and water for 8 hours.

In both cases AFOAF says the seeds were active in him at the dose used.

The effects between test 1 and test 2 were NOT THE SAME. They were very distinctly different. Both caused nausea despite taking the ginger. In test 2, AFOAF unfortunately vomited out some of the seed material, so he didn't get a complete dose.

Here's a rundown of the differences.

Test 1: visuals were less defined, more like outlines, sharp though. The tingling was sharp, edgy, like that of freebase bufotenine taken orally. There was a sour taste in the mouth. AFOAF felt a little sick, not just nausea. All of the effects were pretty much identical to taking 100 mg of freebase bufotenine orally.

Test 2: the visual effects were more like DMT, definitely more defined, smooth, soft. The tingling sensations were more like that experienced from elemicin, very pleasurable, smooth. There was no sick feeling other than the occasional nausea. The effects were very different from taking freebase bufotenine orally, but roughly equipotent to taking 100 mg of freebase bufotenine orally.
Why these seeds are more potent then bufotenine is, I'm not sure. Perhaps MAOIs are present in the seeds. The seeds at most contain 12% bufotenine. At 400 mg orally that's at most 48 mg bufotenine.


So what is going on here? Why are the effects of test 2 unlike freebase bufotenine and more like DMT? What accounts for this? The calcium carbonate is not just freebasing the bufotenine. I know. AFOAF has used freebase bufotenine orally many times. Something is changing. The bufotenine is altered by this somehow.


Quote    Reply   

#1 [url]

Apr 22 08 9:33 PM

Very interesting experience, 69ron.  Just when I had about gave up on swallowing these seeds (without alcohol)...
In the topic on Bufotenine in human urine you stated that:
"Certain herbs like ginger bind to and antagonize 5-HT3 sites. It requires a lot for ginger to do this. This has the effect of lessoning the side effects of bufotenine, while at the same time increasing it’s hallucinogenic effects."
But you also noted that 5-HT4 is also a culprit in the ill-effects of swallowed Cebil.

"If something exists... which blocks bufotenine’s ability to bind to and agonize 5-HT3 and 5-HT4 sites, that will make more bufotenine available to bind to 5-HT2A sites, thereby making it more hallucinogenic, causing less side effects, and it would make it much more potent."

Perhaps upping your dose of Ginger to more fully inhibit 5-HT3.

You also said "The natives may be aware of this kind of interaction, and so they may be eating specific herbs that bind to and antagonize 5-HT3 and 5-HT4 prior to taking takini. This is very possible, and such information is likely to be missed by ethnobotanists studying it’s use."

"SB 204070A" and "SB 207266A" are reputedly "highly selective 5-HT4 receptor antagonists".

But this forum is called "Natures Herb Forum"... and so I also found this.

L-Lysine acts like a partial serotonin receptor 4 antagonist and inhibits serotonin-mediated intestinal pathologies and anxiety in rats
PNAS 100: 15370-15375. 2003.
"The purpose of this investigation was to determine whether a nutritionally essential amino acid, L-lysine, acts like a serotonin receptor 4 (5-HT4) antagonist... Orally applied L-lysine (1 g/kg of body weight) inhibited (P < 0.12) diarrhea triggered by coadministration of restraint stress and 5-hydroxytryptophane (10 mg/kg of body weight), and significantly blocked anxiety induced by the 5-HT4 receptor agonist (3.0 mmol/liter) in rats in vivo.  ...An increase in nutritional load of L-lysine might be a useful tool in treating stress-induced anxiety and 5-HT-related diarrhea-type intestinal dysfunctions."

 

L-Lysine Foods

  • Select foods that are high in protein for the best choice of L-lysine foods. Red meats have the highest L-lysine content; however, pork and poultry also contain lysine. Parmesan cheese contains a beneficial amount of L-lysine. Other foods high in L-lysine include cod, sardines, nuts, eggs, soybeans, tofu, soy flour and fenugreek seed. 

    Vegetarians should add legumes like beans, peas, lentils and soy into their diet to increase L-lysine intake.


Foods to Avoid

  • There are some foods that can inhibit L-lysine absorption. Many baked goods make it difficult for the body to absorb necessary L-lysine. Foods like pastries, doughnuts, cookies and some cereals should be avoided, especially if you are suffering from a L-lysine deficiency. A diet high in these and similar simple sugars could prevent you from reaping the best benefits from L-lysine.  - EHow

Perhaps a combo of Ginger and L-Lysine is needed for optimum effect, like Cinnamon and German Chamomile for Methyl clavicol...
 
Good luck, and
Thank you!

Blessings.

Without prejudice. Everything I write is a work of fiction.

Quote    Reply   
avatar

69ron

fanatic

Posts: 1,678

#2 [url]

Apr 26 08 12:42 PM

This test was repeated using a new batch of toasted seeds. It was found that 0.25 ml of lemon oil taken 30 minutes prior and then again with the calcium carbonate reacted cebil seeds produces a DMT-like trip orally that is completely without any side effects. Not even the slightest hint of nausea is present. The effects for SWIM were totally unlike bufotenine, and nicer than DMT.

Quote    Reply   
avatar

maggy

superstar

Posts: 314

#3 [url]

Apr 26 08 1:31 PM

That information about L-lysine is very useful. Bufotenine effects 5-HT4 but I'm not sure if the new compound created using calcium carbonate from it does. From reading elsewhere, I've learned that 5-HT2A is the site responsible for psychedelic effects. With bufotenine, its 5-HT3 agonist effects are what cause the serious nausea. I'm not sure what it's 5-HT4 effects are, but for sure they are not needed for psychedelic action, and should probably be inhibited to allow more bufotenine to bind to 5-HT2A.
 
I think a mix of L-lysine and lemon oil should greatly boost the psychedelic effects of bufotenine and this new compound, whatever it is, while at the same time blocking the bodily side effects of these compounds.


Without love life means nothing. Spread a little love day by day and remember "the love you take is equal to the love you make".

Quote    Reply   

#5 [url]

May 12 08 12:47 AM

I just wanted to share an experience my dog Ruff had.  He lives in Argentina and sent me a letter saying he used the Lemon essential oil from a local Holistic Health Practicioner to predose and successfully achieved a light, NAUSEA-FREE experience from .7grams of Cebil (4 seeds) toasted and basified overnight with a pair of berry flavored Tums (about 2/5ths calcium carbonate and a lot of sucrose), some ash, and half a burnt snail shell.  He smoked some basified rue seeds during the experience to increase effects... no visuals were experienced, however, 'tho he has gotten CEV and audio hallucinations from the same batch smoked, in combination with rue, with one or two Cebil beans.

He also found the oil to be wonderfully efficient with intercepting the nausea of smoked Cebil as well.
 
My dog had two quick questions:
1.  He has heard some worry about the LD-50 of oral Bufotenine... and is hesitant to go further with oral Vilca or add much rue/caapi into the experience.  Can anyone confirm or deny these fears' foundations?
and;
2.  Can he purify Tums by dissolving in water, straining to catch the Calcium carbonate and throw out the sucrose-water?  Or should he just try picking up some Oyster Shell Flour (high percentage Calcium carbonate), or buy some Calcium carbonate down at the petstore?
 
Thank you.
Blessings.

Without prejudice. Everything I write is a work of fiction.

Quote    Reply   
avatar

69ron

fanatic

Posts: 1,678

#6 [url]

May 12 08 5:25 AM

Flickedbic, thanks for posting that trip report! It’s good to see other people have verified this.

It’s nice to know lemon oil also blocks the nausea from smoked cebil. Very nice.

1.  He has heard some worry about the LD-50 of oral Bufotenine... and is hesitant to go further with oral Vilca or add much rue/caapi into the experience.  Can anyone confirm or deny these fears' foundations?

-flickedbic

This is false information based on the ingestion of toad venum, which contains a lot of toxins. Bufotenine injected is no more dangerous than taking it orally. By intraperitoneal injection the LD50 is 200-300 mg/kg in rodents. That’s less toxic than caffeine, which by intraperitoneal injection is 168-240 mg/kg in rodents. Orally caffeine is 3000-5040 mg/kg in rodents. I would assume a similar dose would apply to bufotenine orally.

I can’t find any tests of oral bufotenine though. But there is no scientific means that I know of that could possibly cause bufotenine to be more toxic orally, then by injection. It just doesn’t make sense to me.

Toad venum is a different thing. It contatins a lot of toxins that are only active orally, and so it’s LD50 for the oral route is very low, while smoking destroys most of the toxins. But this should not apply to bufotenine, but COULD apply to cebil seeds. Cebil seeds contain more than just bufotenine.

So while I believe the oral LD50 of bufotenine is something slightly higher than caffeine, that does not necessarily apply to cebil because it contains more than just bufotenine.

2.  Can he purify Tums by dissolving in water, straining to catch the Calcium carbonate and throw out the sucrose-water?  Or should he just try picking up some Oyster Shell Flour (high percentage Calcium carbonate), or buy some Calcium carbonate down at the petstore?

-flickedbic

I have no idea about the tums.

Calcium carbonate is available pure at most health food stores. It’s used as a calcium supplement. I would just use that.

Quote    Reply   
avatar

twister

superstar

Posts: 227

#7 [url]

May 12 08 9:03 PM

Cebil is added to some ayahuasca, but it's just a little bit. The nausea it causes is the reason I think they don't use a lot.
 
This calcium carbonate processing above is similar to how Yopo is actually made. I've got a friend who tried real Yopo snuff, not snuff he made himself. This was imported, already made snuff. He got very strong visuals from it. He said it was better than his ayahuasca experiments, but it caused a lot of nausea. He tried making snuff himself using calcium hydroxide, and he said it wasn't nearly as good. It felt different, was not as visual. Next time I’ll tell him to try using this method with the calcium carbonate. I’ll report back when he tries it.

Quote    Reply   

#8 [url]

May 22 08 11:03 PM

I pre-dosed with 5 drops of lemon oil and tried  a couple of Vilca seeds (estimated quantity of a powder resulting from 100 toasted and shelled A. Colubrina seeds soaked 36 hours with at least  twice their volume of Calcium Carbonate).


45 mins before taking the Vilca misture, 1 tbs of toasted Peganum seeds was kept in the mouth  with Sodium Bicarbonate  for 20 mins, occasionally chewed and then swallowed . Two small cigarettes was smoked in this meantime.


400mg of silimarin was also taken1 hour before starting all this process.


No nausea or discomforts.
Very mild effects... if any.


The plan is to try again with more material.
Another option could be to insufflate some Nu-nu ( jungle tobacco snuff) at some point of the process:
what is the best timing for that ?
--------------------
Flickedbic, how do you basify S. Rue seeds for smoking ?


Quote    Reply   

#9 [url]

May 24 08 9:28 PM

My dog tells me he basifies S. Rue only when he intends to smoke it, as it is understood by him to be sublingually and orally absorbed better when in it's natural, acidic form.

Ideally a simple extraction would be used (Manske) to purify... but my dog has benefited simply by using the Yopo basification process substituting crushed S. Rue; using ash (and imagines other bases than Calcium carbonate would work)... however a better method may be one used often in Yopo dreamspace by other astral-travelers than my dog, namely; basification by soaking the crushed seed-matter in clean, pure ammonia (no surfectants, etc) for 15 minutes before straining and completely evaporating off the ammonia. 

Maybe someone else will chime in on the Nu-nu.  I was at first hesitant, but am no so sure now.  I seem to recall hearing some use of cocoa (theobromine) (extract?) with oral cebil at the aya forums and noting potentiating effects... altho this was not using the burnt bark.  I have read the roasted Cebil beans are sometimes smoked in cigars with Mapacho tobacco and they chewed on Caapi at times before and with administration.  I dunno if this is with the cigars 'tho or only snuff.

I must say, the dosage I read for Nu-nu was as high or higher (7 grams?) than traditional Yopo snuff, administered thru a similar blow-tube.  With purely traditional ingestion, ones' nose would be in discomfort at least.  Maybe consider 25x Cocoa extract if one has a good scale, I hope someone else can chime in here.

If Yopo was really used in conjunction with the San Pedro cactus at Chavin, then there was probably a nasally administered (I think Mapacho) tobacco liquid infusion from a snail shell that may have preceeded the Yopo snuff, being administered with the cactus.

This is not a concrete fact, however.

Please go slow on your path, listen carefully; these paths have not been well-tread as of late.

Blessings.

Without prejudice. Everything I write is a work of fiction.

Quote    Reply   

#10 [url]

May 26 08 6:24 PM

My dog just wanted to share his latest results: using 6 husked and baked Cebil beans , ground and reacted over 12 hours with 3 times their weight in ground eggshell (CaCO3) before being dried and encapsulated.  He sent me a page from his journal in the following letter.
--------------------------------------------Letter begin---------------------------------------------
"Hi Flickedbic;

9.00pm dosed 1.1 grams S. rue in caps.
9.10 dosed another 1.1 g S. rue in caps.
9.20 dosed 6 drops Lemon essential oil in a shotglass with water, chased with more water.
9.30 Dosed Vilca in caps.
9.35 took a Tums.
9.40 Dreamy headspace from rue noted.  Took another Tums.
10.00pm Legs begin to tingle.
10.30  Tingle moves into entire body, every cell is massaged by an electric, vibrational tingling.
11.00pm  Coming off body peak, moving more into the Vilca head high now.
11.15  Smoke a bowl of unmentionable.
11.30 Hypnogogic images flash through my mind as I review my place in life.  I feel Vilca is a good meditative tool.  The cieling breathes above me.
11.59 pm  Effects are leaving, nausea returning.  I take another drop of Lemon oil sublingually.  Nausea fades.
1.00am  Eat most of a slice of pizza.  Sleep well.
8.45 am  Awake with a pain in my stomach; this frightened me, but lasted only about 15 seconds before dissapating.  This was followed closely by a good bout or two of diarrhea.

All in all; a worthwhile experience.  I only had light closed-eye imagery, lighter than smoking a third of that prepared bean amount .  I also noticed some slight open-eye effects (walls breathing).
Wishing you all the best,
-Ruff"
------------------------------------------Letter End-----------------------------------------
It seems my dogs' effects are comparable to 69rons'; only using 3 times the beans atop 2.2 grams of Syrian rue.  How is this possible? 
Perhaps my dogs' toasting of the seeds relsulted in the destruction of MAOI's and other compounds naturally present in the seeds, thus lowering potentcy.

Thanks for reading; and any imput.
Blessings.
 

Without prejudice. Everything I write is a work of fiction.

Quote    Reply   
avatar

69ron

fanatic

Posts: 1,678

#11 [url]

May 26 08 6:56 PM

Keep in mind that SWIM is extra sensitive to tryptamine hallucinogens and typically needs 1/3 the dose others need for comparable effects.

Also with toasting, SWIM found there was definitely a reduction in potency for oral use if over toasted, but it felt like a cleaner experience. I think there are MAOIs or some other kinds of compounds present that are not heat stable which enhance the effects of bufotenine, and these are lost with extended toasting. Perhaps the small traces of 5-MeO-DMT present act to potentiate bufotenine?

The short stomach pain followed by diarrhea is from improper bowel movements most likely. Usually this is a pain in the lower left corner of the abdomen, sometimes lower right corner, sometimes a sharp pain, but short lived. It sometimes repeats, and is then followed by diarrhea. I’m sure this is caused by the lemon oil and bufotenine combined, producing some unusual bowel movements. Taking something like Metamucil which is high in soluble fiber should help prevent that or at least ease it.

Quote    Reply   

#12 [url]

Feb 12 11 10:25 PM

Source of Calcium Carbonate (egg shells)

I heard that you can get calcium carbonate from egg sells. I heard that if you wash the egg shells heat them then grind them and let them soak in vinegar and wait untill it evaporates and scrape the calcium carbonate. Does this work?

Quote    Reply   
Add Reply

Quick Reply

bbcode help