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Clove oil (eugenol) as a potentiator of psychedelics

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#21 [url]

Apr 8 08 9:43 PM

So taking 20mg piperine with 5 grams german chamomile tea and say a 75mg mesc hcl could lead to a decent and light psychedelic experience ?
This could be easily done in a place.

I'm here to learn a lot about essential oils. If you have some good documents, send me pdf or links.

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69ron

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#22 [url]

Apr 9 08 2:29 AM

It's hard to say. There's very little information on how mescaline is metabolized. I'm thinking German chamomile will not do anything for mescaline. I don't think CYP1A2 attacks mescaline, but it might. It surely attacks elemicin, and they are nearly identical molecules.
 
I think I am very high in CYP2D6 and that’s why a lot of psychedelic compounds like elemicin are very potent in me, while most other people need a lot more.
 
There is unfortunately a whole bunch of conflicting information on piperine’s effect on CYP2D6. Some say it induces it, but most reports say it inhibits it. Wikipedia happens to currently say it induces CYP2D6.
 
If piperine induces CYP2D6, it should boost the effects of mescaline if my hypothesis is correct.
 
If piperine inhibits CYP2D6, it think that might not be good to take with mescaline.
 
The problem with the piperine test is that until it’s confirmed whether or not it induces or inhibits CYP2D6, the results whether positive or negative with mescaline are not going to have clear implications on CYP2D6 metabolism.
 
Piperine often messes up the elemicin trip, slowing it down, but not always. Sometimes it makes it a little stronger. I'm not sure why. I've had mixed results with it. White grapefruit juice always weakens an elemicin trip, even as little as 1/2 a cup taken 1 day before it.

White grapefruit juice strongly inhibits CYP2D6 as well as CYP3A4. If CYP2D6 is needed for mescaline then drinking 2 cups of white grapefruit juice 30 minutes prior to taking mescaline should make the mescaline extremely weak. Has anyone tried that before?
 
MDMA inhibits CYP2D6. I have read often that MDMA users have a hard time tripping from mescaline. This is a clue that CYP2D6 is needed for a good mescaline trip. Also, I believe elemicin requires CYP2D6 for a good trip. It also seems like most MDMA users get little to no effects from elemicin.

I don't know of a proven CYP2D6 inducer that is easy to get. I have been actively searching for one everyday for a long time.


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#23 [url]

Apr 9 08 6:24 AM

So this is getting a bit confusing. So far, there are a few specific enzymes that are players in this psychedelic game: CYP1A2, CYP3A4, CYP2A6, and CYP2D6.

Please correct me if I am wrong or if I am generalizing too much.

CYP1A2 inhibitors = GOOD
CYP2A6 inhibitors = GOOD
CYP2D6 inducers  = GOOD
CYP3A4 inhibitors = BAD

therefore,

German chamomile = GOOD
Cinnamon               = GOOD
Black pepper          = BAD
White grapefruit      = BAD

Still everyone is different and these may not always hold true for an individual's different enzyme levels.

All hail King Neptune and his water breathers!!!! maayyonaaaze!

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69ron

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#24 [url]

Apr 9 08 8:39 AM

So this is getting a bit confusing.

-powerfulmedicine



Yes it is getting confusing. The main problem is that different sources sight different effects for the same herbs concerning inhibition, induction, and inactivity towards various different liver enzymes.


Piperine found in black pepper is said to induce CYP2D6 by some reports. Others say it inhibits it. _Saint _John’s Wort and Ginkgo biloba also suffer this problem with conflicting data about CYP2D6. Some sources say you cannot induce CYP2D6, and others say you can. It’s a mess and I’m trying to work my way through this mess to come up with some solid information.


Concerning white grapefruit juice, some sources say it has no effect on CYP2D6, others say it strongly inhibits it!


Because of so many conflicting reports concerning CYP2D6 induction and inhibition, I’ve had to rethink a lot of what I thought based on data that was flawed. It’s frustrating.


So far, there are a few specific enzymes that are players in this psychedelic game: CYP1A2, CYP3A4, CYP2A6, and CYP2D6.

Please correct me if I am wrong or if I am generalizing too much.

CYP1A2 inhibitors = GOOD

CYP2A6 inhibitors = GOOD

CYP2D6 inducers   = GOOD

CYP3A4 inhibitors = BAD

therefore,

German chamomile = GOOD

Cinnamon         = GOOD

Black pepper     = BAD

White grapefruit = BAD

Still everyone is different and these may not always hold true for an individual's different enzyme levels.

-powerfulmedicine



I’m clear on CYP1A2 and CYP2A6. There is no question about those. I’ve tested them enough and with herbs that are known to inhibit those and pretty much only those and they are all beneficial. The best being cinnamon bark and German chamomile.


CYP3A4 and CYP2D6 are not so clear to me yet. The problem is that all the herbs I tested that inhibit CYP2D6 also inhibit CYP3A4. I haven’t found a good herb that only inhibits one or the other. That makes it hard to clarify whether they are good or not.


CYP2D6 is the most unclear. The reason being I cannot find solid data on it. Every herb I studied that is supposed to inhibit CYP2D6 has some other reports that say it either has no effect, or it induces it! So the CYP2D6 piece is a real hard one to pin down.


For sure, black pepper is not as bad as white grapefruit. Most reports say that white grapefruit either has no effect on CYP2D6 or it strongly inhibits it. What reports to believe? With black pepper you have the same problem, with some reports also saying it induces it.


So CYP2D6 induction being good is right now just a hypothesis. CYP3A4 inhibition being bad is also right now just a hypothesis. It looks this way so far, but until I can find a herb that only effects CYP2D6 and another that only effects CYP3A4, I’ll never be sure.


So this is what I have at the moment:


CYP1A2 inhibitors = GOOD

CYP2A6 inhibitors = GOOD

CYP2D6 inducers   = PROBABLY GOOD

CYP3A4 inhibitors = UNKNOWN


German chamomile = GOOD

Cinnamon         = GOOD

Black pepper     = SOMEWHAT BAD

White grapefruit = VERY BAD


Why black pepper and white grapefruit are bad is still unknown. I need more testing. If I could only find an herb that only inhibited CYP3A4, then I could play around with that and see if inhibition of CYP3A4 or induction is good or bad.


I cannot find herbs that effect CYP3A4 that don’t also affect CYP2D6. That’s a problem. I’ll keep searching.

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69ron

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#25 [url]

Apr 16 08 11:27 AM


By mixing 3 drops of clove oil with 3 drops of German chamomile oil I can get an effect similar to codeine. Apparently this is caused by inhibition of 1-hydroxylation of eugenol.
I wonder what happens if a CYP2D6 inducer is taken with it as well? I think that should form hydroxychavicol. Is that an oil of interest?

-69ron


Like codeine? I kinda like codeine. I like smoking opium once in a while too. I don’t get addicted to it but some people can’t touch the stuff without becoming addicts. I find it a little like tobacco. Comforting, relaxing, a good stress reliever. I can’t see why people get addicted to it myself. It’s not that good that I would want to do it all the time.
I would like to try this clove + chamomile combination. Do you think it’s safe?

-twister

I'm sure it's safe at the doses used, but I tried to duplicate the test and I got simulation and euphoria instead of a codeine like effect. I'm not sure what the heck is going on there. It felt almost like an anti-depressant. I did pre-dose with the 3 drops of German chamomile though 1 hour before, and then I took 4 drops of clove oil with 3 drops of German chamomile. Maybe pre-dosing of the German chamomile made a difference?

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#26 [url]

Apr 21 08 2:07 AM

Hello,

I came across this conversation purely through my own search for answers but it seems you've beat to it.

I have had a lot of experience with clove oil ( which I shall refer to as co here )  and not just taking orally but also injecting it into the joints and " other " areas as well.

The reason for this goes beyond what I want to go into here ( in case someone is reading ) but revolves round my constant need to address my connective tissue complaints that have ( thanks to others misdoing ./ ignorance ) reduced me to becoming dependent on mobility devices.

As result I used co in the past to act as catalyst  substitute for a therapy that uses the same idea of using irritants like sodium morruhate to attract fibroblasts that in turn produce collagen to strengthen tissue.

More often than not I have not had to resort to using this , thanks to being very careful but more recently have found myself contemplating more drastic actions due to unfortunate event that has caused  my condition to regress back to what it was originally in 07 before I was able to - at least temporarily almost cure it.

At that time - like now - i was housebound but far worse in the sense I was afflicted from constant tinnitus and almost no sense of tactile sensation / feeling in my hands / legs ( which sounds a lot worse than you might think )

As result of this and my failed attempts to address things using conventional injections I decided alternative course of action - or backup plan partly based on prior psychedelic experience I had back in 04 with Cubensis .

While that experience was not pleasant ( I had very dark night of the soul experience that took 2 years to recover from ) I did also achieve a nice trade off in the form of  a very particular physical improvement that would not of been possible otherwise.

Up until 07 , I thought that this might have been purely pot luck or some lucky reaction  but then I also started reading reports of Cubensis being used to cure cluster heaches and suspected that it might be connected in some way.

With that in mind I decided to use weaker substitute for the Cubensis ,rather than risk using it again , and decided to go with Scelroita which I used previously before with mainly good results, and more importantly no lasting effects.

When the Sclerotia was ready for use I began ingesting some but found to bemusement that after almost 2 and half hours I was not experiencing any effects at all.

Frustrated and more than little confused and angry at what was occurring I elected to take the rest of the Sclerotia that remained in the jar and waited .

It did not take long for the nausea to hit me , but perhaps more worryingly the realisation I had take more than I should of.

Together with increasing the same creeping paranoia I not felt since my trip in 04 I tried to remain poised / calm while flushing excessive amounts of water through myself to see if would lessen the effects.

After intense few hours  the paranoia eventually stopped and silence set in ( the first I had heard in a good 6-7 months ) since the tinnitus begun and then I felt a warm sensation in my belly being lit  till it enveloped like soft blanket.

I focussed my attention on my legs and found too , like in my previous experiences , that they were responsive and recognisable again   and not the continually frustrating  limbs that had stolen them away from me 12 yrs ago and confined to boundaries on neuropathy - it was bliss

While the effects of this contained my fears from getting worse , the lurking disassociation I felt from myself and everything around me did not , I found myself going into dialogue with myself - or my voice over it until we came to agreement.

By the time I started to feel things become more tangible again
I felt sudden unexpected tension that was like whiplash effect , this resulted in what felt like the back of my skull being pushed into / towards the very area I had injected some 3 days earlier with the co.

At the same time this happened I also saw a bright flash that struck me between my eyes and  coincided perfectly with the conclusion of the whiplash  and the start of the comedown period.

I could tell , the effects of the whiplash where no mere coincidence because of how solid - cement like the whole of that area I had previously injected now felt , and of course the symptoms that had been reversed with it.

In fact I was so delighted with all this , I never really paid much attention to one thing that been affected , my sense of smell,  and it was only later after awakening from my sleep that I noticed it had gone .

While this by far the most depressing and worse trade-off about this whole experience the best had yet to come as it was after the trip had finished , where the real trip began and lasted well into some 3-4 months later.


This period of “ channelling “ allowed me to explore
Worlds which in turn would require me to  waken every  morning at a specific time  in order to available for it - usually round 3.30 am , and this went as I said for over 3 months till I managed to weaken the area that had been affected enough to influence my smell.

In hindsight this may have been bad idea given I never completed my exploration but I was also starting to feel like I was prisoner as well , or one of those unfortunates youd read about in fairy tales who strayed to close to fairy circles and ended up being trapped ..

The more I explored those worlds , the more this reality disappeared.

After this had ended I felt terrible loss at not being able to reconnect to that reality and tried my best to go back through the wardrobe as it were only to find it locked , and key missing.

I would like to think there is another way back to it as the project I started remains uncomplete and can not be completed till I get back.

If any one finds a way let me know, and say ,” Hi “ to my friends…

matt

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toastus

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#27 [url]

May 13 08 2:52 PM

This is interesting: "The screening of Piperaceous plants for xanthine oxidase inhibitory activity revealed that the extract of the leaves of Piper betle possesses potent activity. Activity-guided purification led us to obtain hydroxychavicol as an active principle. Hydroxychavicol is a more potent xanthine oxidase inhibitor than allopurinol, which is clinically used for the treatment of hyperuricemia"
By mixing eugenol with a CYP2D6 inhibitor, hydroxychavicol should be created. Are it's xanthine oxidase inhibitory actions very useful?

-69ron

Wait a minute... Hydroxychavicol should form dopamine in the brain. Is that why you got Euphoria and stimulation!?

Also, I'm wondering how this connects to Chavibetol and Methyl Eugenol.

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69ron

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#28 [url]

May 13 08 11:05 PM

"By mixing eugenol with a CYP2D6 inhibitor, hydroxychavicol should be created", what the heck? I wrote that? I must have been sleepy.
 
That should read "By mixing eugenol with a CYP2D6 inducer, hydroxychavicol should be created".
 
Sorry about that. That is clearly a mistake. For sure, hydroxychavicol should form something like dopamine in the brain.
 
In my test above I pre-dosed with German chamomile, and then took the eugenol with the German chamomile as well. If CYP2D6 was present in sufficient amounts in my body at the time, with CYP1A2 inhibited, it will convert eugenol into hydroxychavicol. That is a fact. Normally though, eugenol is converted to 1-hydroxy-eugenol, which is a sedative. With German chamomile present, that conversion is greatly hindered, so instead CYP2D6 should be able to attack it and form hydroxylchavicol, which probably ends up as something similar to dopamine in the brain.

So looking back at that test, I can see how the antidepressant effects were possible. However that depends on CYP2D6 being present in good amounts. Many things inhibit CYP2D6, and it is normally in short supply, so getting decent antidepressant effects in this case might work sometimes and fail at other times.

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#29 [url]

Jul 3 08 10:35 PM

This dude w/ a medallion told me that he likes to put clove oil on his mj buds for a better high. Is this medallion dude nuts?

The machinery for [the] transformation—the procession within time from the Age of Iron to the Age of Gold—is at work now; in eternity it is already accomplished.

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#30 [url]

Jul 3 08 11:13 PM

I found this report:

One Saturday I was on meth and had been smoking kind bud when I decided to experiment with eugenol for the first time.

Before this experiment, I was not sure if the eugenol would have a chance of entering the brain due to the fact that it has a 4-OH phenolic group; however, it also has a 3-methoxy phenyl group, so there was some chance that the drug could enter the brain. Psilocin and THC both have alcoholic groups and still manage to get into the brain. After this experiment, there is no doubt in my mind that eugenol can too.

I had been tweaking for at least 12 hours at least, but was still high, and had smoked some kind bud within the last 4 hours. Then I took to the notion of anointing my thick, wavy, brown hair with clove bud oil. As with many essential oil trips, I knew there was no guanrantee of any effect. Usually no effect is to be had, but sometimes they will surprise you. To be honest, I don't think that I actually even ingested any before this very special trip; rather, it went through my scalp.

This happened around midnight. Within 4 hours I was in a special place which I had never experienced before but which cannot be attributed to either the meth or the kind bud alone.

But I wasn't exactly rolling. The feeling I had was certainly not unlike rolling, but was more clear-headed and less e-tarded feeling. There was no great urge to dance or release deep-seated emotions, but rather an unshakable inner peace and sense of satisfaction that I had never felt before. The feeling was subtle, introspective and pleasurable without being intrusive in any way.

There is no doubt in my own mind that eugenol is in fact worthy of being considered one of the fruits of the spirit. I tried eating a dash or two of the oil a day or two later but did not get the same result. The methampetamine may have enabled the eugenol in some way, or this whole experience may have been some kind of fluke.

If I had the ways or means of converting eugenol to 4-hydroxy-3-methoxyamphetamine and 4-OH-3-MeO-methamphetamine, I would jump at the chance, but alas, I don't and don't see the point in risking my future freedom on some foolhardy endeavor doomed to failure. (http://www.bluelight.ru/vb/archive/index.php/t-187020.html)


Perhaps medallion-dude should anoint his head w/ clove oil, or ingest it orally, before smoking his mj, rather than smoking clove oil-topped mj. Thoughts?

The machinery for [the] transformation—the procession within time from the Age of Iron to the Age of Gold—is at work now; in eternity it is already accomplished.

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#32 [url]

Jul 4 08 5:29 PM

I agree; it has been my understanding that this was the reason monks traditionally shaved their heads... as a place for the liquid-soaked cap and the hair around the rim left there to catch runoff.  I could be mistaken; there are some interesting ancient annointing oil recipies in the bible (and other places...) mayhaps involving cinnamon(Cassia) and Clove oil.
-
Bless this clove and cinnamon and allspice to represent the fragrance of prayer and the oil of gladness. [Psalm 45:7]


Without prejudice. Everything I write is a work of fiction.

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hendrix

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#33 [url]

Jul 4 08 6:22 PM

this clove and cinnamon and allspice to represent the fragrance of prayer and the oil of gladness. [Psalm 45:7]

-flickedbic


Dude, allspice is psychedelic if it's not digested. Unlike elemicin, allspice contains methyl eugenol as the active and this oil is most probably psychedelic without oral metabolism needed. Elemicin needs  the P450 enzyme CYP2D6 to activate it. Methyl eugenol is the opposite. It's normally inactivated orally. PussyKat used Mexican allspice with inhibitors that inhibit pretty much all P450 enzyme in the digestive system, and that made it psychedelic. Ron used it with CYP2D6 not inhibited and it didn’t work. So it sounds like topical application would work for allspice, but not elemi oil.

Clove oil = eugenol
Cinnamon oil = cinnamaldehyde
Allspice oil = methyl eugenol

Eugenol acts like a transfer vehicle, aiding the topical absorption of other oils. That's why it's added to witches flying ointments.

Cinnamaldehyde causes a release of adrenalin and improves mood and enhances the effects of psychedelics because of it.

Methyl eugenol is psychedelic when not metabolized by P450 enzymes in the stomach.

This sounds like a perfect mix to get a serious psychedelic reaction going.

Were these people tripping from this?

Between the eyes and ears there lie The sounds of colour and the light of a sigh

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#34 [url]

Mar 1 09 11:17 AM

Hi, guys I have lost a bunch of episodes of this story.
Could somebody please resume, answering this question:
At the end,Is white grapefruit juice good for mescaline ?
I ask this because I had reliable personal reports that peyote is preferably washed down with grapefruit juice by natives in Mexico, as if it was the drink of election to swallow both, capsules or fresh hikuri meat.

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69ron

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#35 [url]

Mar 2 09 9:49 PM

This is an old thread. One of the things said above by hendrix was found to be incorrect. CYP2D6 appears not to be needed for elemicin to be active. Newer tests point in the direction of CYP2C9 being the required enzyme and not CYP2D9. It was formerly believed that CYP2D6 was needed because all of the CYP2D6 enzyme inhibitors tested at the time ruined the effects of elemicin. However all of the inhibitors tested also inhibited CYP2C9 and a few other enzymes. It was later found that inhibitors that almost exclusively inhibited CYP2D6 (such as calamus) had no negative effect at all on elemicin, while inhibitors that almost exclusively inhibited CYP2C9 did. Most enzyme inhibitors inhibit more than 1 enzyme. So we need to be careful about drawing conclusions from enzyme inhibitors. While it currently appears that CYP2C9 is needed, and not CYP2D6, there isn’t 100% proof of this. I know from tests that CYP2D6 is not needed. Calamus oil is one of the few potent CYP2D6 inhibitors that doesn’t also inhibit CYP2C9. Calamus oil potently inhibits CYP2D6 and CYP3A4 and was found to be beneficial to the effects of elemicin, not detrimental. So this old theory about CYP2D6 was proven to be false. It now appears that CYP2C9 is needed. This is talked about elsewhere on this forum.

At the end,Is white grapefruit juice good for mescaline ?
I ask this because I had reliable personal reports that peyote is preferably washed down with grapefruit juice by natives in Mexico, as if it was the drink of election to swallow both, capsules or fresh hikuri meat.

-muvieri

Mescaline and elemicin share very similar metabolic pathways at a certain point, but their initial metabolism is totally different. Mescaline is the water soluble phenethylamine form, while elemicin is the oil soluble allylbenzene form of this molecule. The XLogP3 of elemicin is 2.5. The XLogP3 of mescaline is 0.7. Mescaline’s XLogP3 should be too low for it to be a substrate of P450 enzymes, while elemicin is a major substrate of P450 enzymes because of its high XLogP3 (making it highly oil soluble). P450 enzymes attack oil soluble compounds mostly.

The primary effect of grapefruit juice is it inhibit P450 enzymes such as CYP3A4, CYP2D6, etc. None of these P450 are known to attach mescaline. So if grapefruit juice is beneficial, it’s certainly not beneficial by it’s P450 inhibition effects.

Grapefruit may also have effects on P-glycoprotein and organic anion transporting polypeptides. Grapefruit probably also has other actions. Some of these other actions might have an effect on mescaline.

It is important to note that peyote is not mescaline and mascaline is not peyote. The effects of pure mescaline are similar to, but not the same as peyote. No one would ever confuse the effects of pure mescaline with the effects of peyote. Peyote contains other compounds that have a great impact on the effects of peyote. Some of these other compounds are much more oil soluble than mescaline and might be greatly affected by P450 enzymes.

Judging from the current understanding of mescaline metabolism, it’s very likely that grapefruit juice has absolutely no effect on pure mescaline. Peyote is a different story. It contains other compounds that are indeed substrates of P450 enzymes. Peyote is very likely to be potentiated by grapefruit juice, even though mescaline is probably not.

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#37 [url]

Mar 6 09 9:54 AM

 On the contrary i read recently an interview to La Gringa, a S. Pedro curandera, who recommended not  to eat  citruses before the San Pedro sessions. 

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69ron

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#38 [url]

Mar 6 09 10:28 AM

That's interesting. Did this curandera explain why citrus is not recommended for San Pedro?

People tend to lump all mescaline containing cacti together which isn't a good thing. San Pedro is actually very different from peyote. Peyote contains a lot of compounds not found in San Pedro. Most people that have tried the two will say they are pretty different.

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#39 [url]

Dec 15 09 5:13 AM

i would bet money the reason clove EO boosts psychedelic at certain doses is multi-fold and here are a few ideas i have about some of the effects that cause this:

Beta-Caryophyllene would activate the CB2 receptor strongly, many psychedelics (especially 5-HT2A agonists) up-regulate the expression of the endogenous precursors for cannabinoids so i would image Beta-Caryophyllene pre-dose would make psychedelics more strongly effect CB1 as it would tie up CB2 allowing the endogenous precursors to instead target CB1.

then theirs the fact that it at least slightly inhibits MAO A, possibly its small amount of inhibition quickly turns into induction allowing MAO A to more easily create aldehydes or alcohols from some compounds.

and then theirs the idea that the (potential) active alkaloid form(s) of clove oil themselves agonize 5-HT2A up-regulating the expression of endogenous cannabinoids making more fuel for the following substances that act on these systems, allowing the brunt of the later taken compounds to have more resources free to hit additional receptors or minor receptors more strongly.

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sativa

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#40 [url]

Mar 9 13 9:22 AM

Results from this study show that eugenol inhibits monoamine oxidase A (MAOA) preferentially with a Ki = 26 μM. It also inhibits MAOB but at much higher concentrations (Ki = 211 μM). In both cases, inhibition is competitive with respect to the monoamine substrate.

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