Remove this ad

Dysphoria (Shulgin vs. the Rose)

Rss     Subscribe     Share     Tweet    


0 Points

Lead

May 19 11 4:48 AM

Tags : :

Shulgin writing about TMA experience:

http://isomerdesign.com/PiHKAL/read.php?domain=pk&id=157

"(with 225 mg) “There was quite a bit of nausea in the first hour. Then I found myself becoming emotionally quite volatile, sometimes gentle and peaceful, sometimes irritable and pugnacious. It was a day to be connected in one way or another with music. I was reading Bernstein’s ‘Joy of Music’ and every phrase was audible to me. On the radio, Rachmaninoff’s 2nd piano concerto on the radio put me in an eyes-closed foetal position and I was totally involved with the structure of the music. I was suspended, inverted, held by fine filigreed strands of the music which had been woven from the arpeggios and knotted with the chords. The commercials that followed were irritating, and the next piece, Slaughter on Fifth Avenue, made me quite violent. I was told that I had a, ‘Don’t cross me if you know what is good for you,’ look to me. I easily crushed a rose, although it had been a thing of beauty.”

This description came to mind as I went to start a topic on "dysphoriants."

In my experiences with Elemi oil (20-30 drops transdermally on various sites), I have encountered dysphoria somewhat frequently.
Could just be a coincidence and be due to how I was feeling at the times I worked with Elemi oil.
However, here's a pretty dysphoric account from these forums of Elemi oil transdermal administration: 

http://herbs.mxf.yuku.com/topic/4445050/Elemi-Oil-NOT-Recommended-for-Transdermal-Application#.UzzbaNy0af0

"...I want to warn that if you use elemi oil for transdermal activation of elemicin, especially with mineral oil or another carrier matrix, you may experience many unpleasant side effects.  These may include sore joints, muscle weekness, flu-like symptoms, mental cloudiness, depressed or unpleasant mood effects, and general malaise."

This might be worth mentioning in regard to the possibility of TMA as a metabolite of Elemicin which has been discussed in these forums and elsewhere.  

But really I just wanted to bring about a discussion on dysphoria in the psychopharmacological sense.  
Mood is so tricky and subjective, but maybe we can start to see some trends.
Thoughts? Experiences?

-NG
Quote    Reply   
Remove this ad
Remove this ad

#1 [url]

May 19 11 7:38 AM

Wasn't sure if my post seemed like I was asking about Elemicin only. Maybe I should have posted in another area though?  Regardless, just wanted to make it clear that I'm interested in hearing about a wide range of substances in regards to dysphoria.  

Quote    Reply   

#2 [url]

May 19 11 11:58 PM

I think any substance is able to cause dysphoria at the right amounts

I've felt very dysphoric and nauseous after smoking too much hash oil before

There is a lot of dysphoria when you take moderate doses of most anti-cholinergics orally

Quote    Reply   

#3 [url]

May 20 11 1:23 AM

Alkaloid Lovin- Good points.  I've definitely seen some oral cannabis experiences go wrong (even when the person was an experienced smoker).
 Occasionally I'll offer to smoke with someone and they'll decline saying that when they smoke they get very anxious, self-conscious and paranoid.
This kind of sounds like a bad trip, but for these people it seems that cannabis doesn't have the potential (at least in their minds) to produce a "good trip."

I'm glad you mentioned anti-cholinergics as I think this is a great group of substances to look at in the context of this thread.
The anti-cholinergic DPH (diphenhydramine HCL) is a substance that seems to weigh heavily toward dysphoria in the many opinions I have encountered.

I was once a pretty heavy abuser of DPH.  
However, I used it partly to escape feeling down (in a weird indirect way).
It would make my mind race with nonsense so I was literally incapable of having coherent negative thoughts.
It would also produce some jaw dropping visual effects.
I was using it in conjunction with opiates and benzos most of the time (going for a psychedelic nod).  
This was dangerous and I'd warn to use caution mixing these.
Without the benzos and opiates, DPH would have been (and I confirmed this recently) a lot less enjoyable for me.

So something that was dysphoric in me becomes enjoyable (maybe not "euphoric") with the addition of other substances.
This makes me think of a thread started by 69ron about using datura inoxia with cramp bark to block/reduce the anti-cholinergic effect while potentiating the visuals.

http://herbs.mxf.yuku.com/topic/3620632/Cramp-bark-Datura-inoxia-Closed-Eye-Visuals?page=3#.Uz4AfNy0ZuY

It's good to see that you and Datura are allies.  
It's another good example of something people swear off and warn against (many times with little justification).
I've been using some wrightii seeds here and there but no big doses yet.

Have you experimented with trying to block the anti-cholinergic effect?
If so, did this make it more enjoyable?
Is the anti-cholinergic effect enjoyable at times (on the mind at least, not sure many people would enjoy dry mouth!)? 
I guess delirium would be by definition neither enjoyable nor unenjoyable, but do you enjoy coming close to that state?

One other thing I wanted to mention is the feelings within the "dysphoria spectrum" can be tools as well. 
Sure, euphoria is nice, but it's usually not the goal for me, and usually doesn't happen anyway.
It seems almost more productive to feel profoundly sad than insanely happy hah.

Feeling angry really sucks to me, though.  I guess it could be useful sometimes.
Maybe I should find some steroids and vodka to experiment with hah.
Or maybe not. 


-NG


 

Quote    Reply   

#4 [url]

May 20 11 5:54 AM

Id like to say when I think of drug induced dysphoria I think of feeling physically and mentally uncomfortable not so much emotionally sad depressed or mad, maybe annoyed.

Its cool to see another anticholinergic user! In my early teens I was a big DPH and DXM user. mixed the two frequently, I personally can no longer stand taking of DPH anymore due to the unbearable dysphoric body load, dull visuals and intense restlessness. out of all anticholinergics i've tried DPH is the most unpleasant. The only thing it has going for it is its short lasting delirium abundant availability and it doesn't leave you with blurry vision after your done tripping. It is a very good combo with opiates, not the best but still very good. I bet the benzo's would take the edge off the restlessness nicely but would make you completely blackout at a high dose trips.

I haven't found much use for cramp bark . The dry mouth can be managed by chewing chill pepper seeds or swishing some tabasco sauce in your mouth, It helps ALOT . To truly counteract the anticholinergic effect put on a nicotine patch and puff on an E-cig or a regular one, this will stimulate some cholinergic activity bringing back some mental clarity but it reduces visuals due to the anticholinergic activity being suppressed.

I don't recommend taking large amounts of datura orally due to it lasting to long(especially the seeds) . If you do try a large dose give your self at least 42 hours of spare time to trip and expect your eyesight to be poor for about a day after you finish tripping. Also prepare your datura instead of consuming the raw plant matter, this will shorten the duration, grind up the seeds, mash up the flowers to a paste, make a tea out of bruised or dried leaves, etc (dont touch your eyes after handling the stuff)

I love smoking datura, Its a completely different experience. Its nice and mild, goes great with weed and makes it much more visual, makes any hallucinogen more visual and intense plus it is the most effective way that I know to treat nausea.

Back to dysphorints, kappa opiate agonists are known to cause dysphoria and hallucinations.

Also opiate antagonists induce strong dysphoria and opiate withdrawal like symptoms

Quote    Reply   
Remove this ad

#5 [url]

May 21 11 2:23 AM

For me, there is no drug that I've to tried that consistently causes dysphoria. And most drugs I've tried have never caused any real dysphoria.

Salvia is euphoric to me, although I have yet to smoke a breakthrough dose.

I too have a lot of experience with deliriants although I've only ever used DPH to reach a state of delirium. I've never found DPH to cause dyphoria. I always feel emotionally neutral. There can be some anxiety and jumpiness, but no real sadness, irritability, or even fear.

I've also used DXM a lot. The only time I ever experienced anything similar to dysphoria is a time when I used DXM polystyrex to reach to the 4th plateau although I would describe it more as disorientation and fear.

Another drug that is sometimes considered dysphoric is Amanita muscaria. I've never felt dysphoria from this mushroom. In fact, fly agaric causes the most serene effects of any drug I've ever used.

And while Acacia confusa anahuasca has always been extremely uncomfortable and even terrifying at the beginning of the trip, it always ends up being extremely euphoric.

The only truly dysphoric experience I've ever had was a time when I consumed a ridiculous amount of dark chocolate and cocoa solids along with some other herbs for enzyme manipulation. I ended up feeling as if I had a horrible flu during the effects. Then the next day I was filled with crippling depression and despair followed by extreme anger and irritability.

I think that the capacity of a drug to cause dysphoria will vary from person to person and with mindset. In my experience, negative emotional effects only occur when I have taken a dose that I was not ready for or when I put my self in a stressful setting during the experience.

Quote    Reply   

#6 [url]

May 21 11 2:45 PM

if you fill a gel capsule with half olive oil and half peppermint oil and swallow it followed by a peanut butter sandwich you will probably experience an hour to an hour and a half of kappa agonism causing dysphoria.

if you work out during the hour or so and for a bit afterwords and take another dose it will get exponentially more potent.

i can now easily achieve salvia style MC escher like effects from peppermint oil.

cannabis and lemon oil strongly synergize with peppermint oil.

Quote    Reply   

#8 [url]

May 24 11 10:44 AM

You could buy almond nut spread/butter from a health food store, if you're not allergic to them. There are quite a few varieties of seed spreads about.

Quote    Reply   
Remove this ad
Add Reply

Quick Reply

bbcode help